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lappy512
Hey, I have this cool math challenge. Look at the attached image (not to scale).

You have a 100 ft pole, and a 10' by 10' box right next to it. Now, we need to find a place to cut the pole so it can fold and then make a triangle, with one point touching the box, and one point touching the ground. Assume that the box has all 90 degree angles, and the flagpole is perpendicular to the ground.

At what height should we cut the flagpole so it can fold to form the triangle? Show your work, guess and check/graphing not allowed.

It should be possible without guessing and checking, or graphing an equation. You should be able to solve this algebraically.

There should be two answers.
Senor Halo Blue 9
Wow I have tried this and it is very interesting...very clever...
Mynck
Got the answer! That was easy. tongue.gif

I attached an encrypted zip file. PM me if you want the password.
lappy512
Heh, looked over it, it's definitely incorrect.
(I talked to him, he said it's incorrect after I showed him why)
Mynck
Bleh. I see where I messed up. In the second-to-last step, when using the quadratic formula, I should've added instead of subtracting.

But wait. I still get a negative number.

Oh, I see now. I missed one of the x's from the 7th step in the 8th step.

I'll correct and reupload.


-----Edit-----

Either I did it wrong, or this'll take hours to solve.
anthonytc22
Below is my solution to the problem.

Here is my reference image:

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «
whimbrel
Below is my solution to the problem.

I did something similar, but a little cleaner. First, though, I divide everything by 10 to simplify the math. The square has sides of length 1, and the big pole is now length 10.

0) Once you fold the pole, you get a triangle. Get equations for each leg. The side going up is "x", the hypotenuse is (10 -x), and the bottom leg is sqrt(100 - 20x), by solving from the given two legs.

1) You now have a figure with three triangles: the big triangle we care about, and the two triangles above and to the right of the inscribed square. Realize that all three triangles are similar triangles (inside angles, blah blah blah).

2) Because of (1), the trig functions for all three triangles will be identical. Let's choose the easiest to work with, which is the tan function (opposite/adjacent)

3) The upper small triangle has adjacent side = 1, and opposite side = (x - 1). The whole triangle has adjacent side = sqrt(100 - 20x) and opposite side = x. (from step 0)

4) Set these two tangents equal to each other: (x-1)/1 = x/sqrt(100-20x). Solve for x.

5) This results in the cubic: -20x^3 + 139x^2 - 220x + 100= 0.
6) Solve this, giving x = 4.92, .90, or 1.12.
7) Multiply back by 10 to get the real answers of 49.2 and 11.2

Is there a way to do this that doesn't involve solving a cubic?
Spaceman3750
My answer below

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «
Mynck
My password was "manyana".

I also ended up in a cubic.
GameClaw_268
Meh, I can't figure it out without trigonometry... I loose...
Mynck
One problem with using trigonometry: you don't know what the angles are. tongue.gif
Qlumpa
Hmm...

Anyway, here's my "smart" answer for now...

1. Cut the pole at the twenty feet.
2. Shove the other eighty feet of pole down into the ground at a 45 degree angle so it touches the top of the now twenty foot pole and the corner of the square. Bueno tongue.gif
Mynck
Lol, the practical one.
lappy512
No! It will cost a bunch to build a 100ft pole, and a 10x10x1 box...Also the chainsaw and ladders! Think of the cost!
Archimerged
You guys give up too easily. Why is the equation cubic? What is the meaning of the root a = 9.00544849? Try to figure it out before you look.
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

Now, when I solved it, I got a 6th degree polynomial. All 6 roots have a physical interpretation which sort-of meet the problem. It turns out the reason I got more roots is I considered the two small triangles which each share a side with the square, and wrote that the sum of their hypotenuses plus the upright pole must be 10 (after dividing everything by 10), and the two small triangles must be right triangles. I didn't use any similar triangles, law of cosines, or trig functions. As a result, I got more solutions.

Here are my definitions:

Divide by 10 to get rid of all those useless zeros. Call the apex of the bent flagpole point P = (0,1+b), and call the tip touching the ground point Q = (1+e,0). Call the lower left corner of the box O = (0,0), and the upper right corner I = (1,1).

For the third root, b is negative because point P is below the upper left corner (0,1).
Also, e is negative, because the tip of the pole is to the left of the lower right corner (1,0). The meaning of negative b and e is clearly defined by using coordinates instead of talking about lengths.

Here is one derivation of an equation that requires P, I and Q to be on a line:
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

Here is the derivation I worked out originally:
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «
Here is another derivation:
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

So an equation which requires P, Q, and I to be colinear is just (b e) = 1.

Next, I want to require that the pole has length 10.
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


Allowing either c or d to be negative yields a 6th degree polynomial:
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


Images of 6 solutions

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

--
Archimerged is founder of the Renewable Energy Design Wikicity. What are you waiting for? Contributors needed!
thisoldmage
That's quite a bit of work, Archimerged. The answers aren't that hard to get, but since I used paper I'm not going to post what I got. Anyways didn't someone say my 2 answers.
Mynck
Archimerged... wow.
You a mathematician or something?
Archimerged
QUOTE(thisoldmage @ Mar 19 2006, 02:16 AM)
That's quite a bit of work, Archimerged. The answers aren't that hard to get, but since I used paper I'm not going to post what I got. Anyways didn't someone say my 2 answers.
*



Yes, I get obsessed with things sometimes. I wasn't interested in getting the expected two answers. I was curious about why the cubic? Why my third answer was different from the posted third? Also I made the graphs in SVG using inkscape, taking the opportunity to learn how to use inkscape. The posted images are png because SVG isn't widely supported yet. I used gimp to convert them to png.

Inkscape download page
Inkscape user manual

I did the work on paper too. Later I got the numerical answers using a spreadsheet (gnumeric).

A9, A10 = values of b that give opposite signs to the polynomial

B9: =(1+81*A9^2-18*A9^3)^2-A9^2*(A9^2+1)*(2*A9-18)^2

B10 to B110: copy of B9

A11: =(A9+A10)/2

A12: =if(B10*B11<0,A10,A9)

Select A11 and A12, drag the lower right corner with + cursor down below A110. This copies A11 to odd cells and A12 to even cells in column A.

QUOTE(Mynck @ Mar 19 2006, 02:56 PM)
Archimerged... wow.
You a mathematician or something?
*


No. I'm interested in math and physics, but not trained in either. An amateur... I get sidetracked at lot. Now, I'm working on renewable energy sources. Take a look at
the Submerged Archimedes Screw project. Questions, suggestions, etc. welcome. The site is a wiki meaning you can edit it.


Don't double-post, please and thank you.
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